Dagmara Asbreuk (00:00.328)
Welcome to the Extraordinary Leadership Podcast. This is a place for you if you aspire extraordinary. Fueled with inspiration, meaningful conversations and valuable insights that are going to support your journey of becoming an extraordinary leader and making truly a difference in your organization and living a desired life. My name is Dagmar Asbrouk and I am your host in this show and I'm also a founder and CEO of Extraordinary Leadership. I'm bringing you exceptional leaders.
Change makers from different industries sharing their stories and above all, what made them more successful, impactful and happy. Also sharing my discoveries from navigating and leading 15 years in a corporate world, building my business and empowering senior and executive leaders to go to their next level with their organizations and in their lives. I hope that you are excited and ready. So let us begin. What does it mean to be an imp...
impactful communicator. Is it only about the words we choose or the stories we tell as leaders? Of course not. It's about how we connect with another human being and how we make others feel. And quite frankly, you can either motivate and inspire another human being or do the opposite. Communication is an instrument of impact and influence and
It consists on many different elements. Now, how do you master it? That's exactly what we dive into this episode together with Sana Assam, who is my guest today. She is a CEO and founder of MenaSpeakers, an absolute authority in public speaking and with whom I had an authentic conversation about how to make an impact. This episode is going to provide you different elements to elevate your impact and communication as leader to an absolute next level.
Hello, Sana. Thank you very much for joining me today in this conversation. Thank you for having me. What is the best word that describes you? So my name is Sana in Swedish means the true truth. And if there something that would describe me and the way that I like to lead my life, it's very much centered around truth. And that's really translated into...
Dagmara Asbreuk (02:23.906)
When people are talking, I hear if they're in their truth or not. And I like to challenge individuals I'm connecting with around that. So very much about one of my core values is around truth, authenticity, truth. that's something I would say is a good description of my word. Wow, beautiful. I kind of felt that when you said that and it's...
I being authentic is something that very much resonates with me and I can understand where it comes from that it's basically when we are in our true self, right? When we are authentic, are in our self. And it's so much needed and actually so much connected with the topic that we discussed because that is what is the X-factor in connecting and impactively communicating, isn't it? Yeah. And I would say individuals that gravitate
towards me, but professionally, the speakers, friends, new friends, they're very much comfortable in this space. And they very much are kind of in pursuit of this thing of seeking their truth. What brought you to this journey of seeking your truth? The short answer is that it felt right. The longer answer was I started recognizing the absence of it. I was working in the financial services sector.
And there was something there that didn't feel aligned, didn't feel true. And I could almost feel it in my body, but I could also tell myself, it's fine, it's fine, but you're doing so well. You're on this really fantastic trajectory. You're earning so much and you're a high point organization. You know, the top management, things that would, it's okay, it's okay. I almost gaslight myself into thinking that it's okay. And then at some point,
I attended a few courses and in that journey I started connecting more with myself and then I went, I'm quite far away from living, you know, my values and my highest truth. And that's when it became really evident looking back like, something's off. So that's when I pretty much immediately left financial services sector and set up the business of MENA Speakers eight years ago.
Dagmara Asbreuk (04:42.422)
And then every moment from there has been the pursuit of coming closer to my truth. Whatever that is and however that's expressing itself. And the beauty of it is the closer I get to myself, the more everyone and everything else around me is course correcting to fit that. Yeah. There is a lot of natural elimination and natural attraction that is happening when we are aligning and becoming, right? Embodying, I to call it.
more and more the true self, our respect of who we are at the core, right? It's a beautiful journey. And that's what brought you to start the Men and Speakers as well, isn't it? It is. It really, really is. It came from a place of, yes, this is my value. I want to work with my values. now fast forward, that filter is amazing. Knowing your values. So if you want to do the intellectual exercise of what am I doing in life?
And you put the filter of values, whether that is an activity, career, hobby, friends, whatever that may be, partner. If you have that filter, it becomes such a nice additional verification of, you're on the right path, you're doing the right thing. But going back to Mina speakers, it was really about creating a platform from this region to the world. And there was an absence of it too. There was not a bigger appetite to.
work with MENA-based speakers for various reasons. So I wanted to create a change. I wanted to set up a platform where air voices or people that look like me were on stage as leaders being role models, because at the end of the day, role models don't look a specific way. But where I was raised, they did. And it was very much pale, male, and stale. So was really important for me to
give other voices a platform to showcase their stories, knowledge, expertise, so that somebody sitting on stage or an audience can go, if this person is doing it and they look like me, then wait, maybe I have a chance to also become a leader, influencer, impact person. Wow. So it's just driving inspiration, right? Because it's we are in building diversity, I guess, and more encouragement for bringing more flavor into it.
Dagmara Asbreuk (06:59.65)
Leadership itself is amazing. you know, to add on to that, recently came across this expression, you quit your job, you don't quit your mission. And so when I set up the business, was the number of times people were telling me like, what are you doing? We don't pay for speakers. You're not going to be able to survive. You're not going to be able. It was a lot of backlash and they weren't necessarily wrong because that's where the market was at that point in time. And I did struggle to close deals and
to make ends meet for quite some time, but I was so mission driven. It was so important to me to create that sense of inspiration to help build the community and be a part of that. And we see that today whenever we have a great speaker on stage, we get the emails, thank you, changed my life. If somebody says something, because you don't know who's listening. And it just changes their trajectory. You go, I'm doing something right.
This is just something that I'm unbelievably inspired by and passionate around. Beautiful. And, you know, it's through your passion about it and dedication to that mission that you are able to attract those people that are then, you know, populating or amplifying the voice, I would say, in the different flavors, isn't it? Yeah. Beautiful. So how does all connects with being an impactful communicator as a leader? As a leader, so if we look at it from the lens of like corporate
the corporate world or business leader or entrepreneur in every possible way. So there is research that shows if you're growing in your career or if you plan to grow in your career, up to 93 % of that is determined by some form of communication, whether it's the way you speak, your actual words, or your executive presence, the way you dress, the way you show up, or if it's the way you manage your peer level relationships.
There is a serious business case to think about your communication skill, both as an emerging leader, but also, of course, as a leader. And I think you build your tribe and loyalty through communication. Yes, lead by example, but also through communication by telling everyone around you what's happening in the vision and where you're rowing. And that's unbelievably important. And I see often it's a skill.
Dagmara Asbreuk (09:23.758)
It's like a sport or something that you're learning how to do it. Even though we all speak. Yeah, of course, everyone here speaks. But do you do it well? Do you do it with intention? Do you do with impact? Do do with a sense of truth? And there's there is a journey in that where you have to be intentional and enhancing that process. And so that's why it's become my something I'm obsessed with. It's something I work with every single day.
I love it. think it's important. I wish more people were stepping into that of finding their voice and speaking with impact. Finding their voice, isn't it? I always see, I mean, communication is the instrument of influencing and leadership is influencing, isn't it? Or inspiring, or impacting, or connected. And before we go into surely, you know, how leaders can be better into that, what comprise communication? So when we...
use the terminology of communication. What is it apart from words? So the most simplest way to answer this...
when engaging in human form one to one, you know, we're talking about the nonverbal and the verbal. And then those I can break down into several subcategories. say verbal, it's about your pitch, your pace, the words that you're using, your tone, et cetera. If we're talking nonverbal, there are so many elements. One thing I want to refer to is the halo effect, for example. If somebody walks into a room and you go, ooh.
like this energy or like this vibe, right? So that's referred to as the halo effect. And you also have the opposite. And that's a lot of nonverbal communication happening where you go, I feel safe with this person. I'm gravitating towards this person. I want to learn more from that person. I want to stay here or the opposite. want to leave. And so that's been deconstructed in numerous ways from the behavioral science. Some of the things that are there.
Dagmara Asbreuk (11:25.016)
could be actually your body language, if you're going with open gestures, big smile, you're looking well-groomed. All of those send a lot of trust signals. And then you have the opposite, which doesn't send trust signals. And we can quite intuitively feel that. And we can also train ourselves to feel that even better. And that's research from Paul Ekman. I don't know if you've come across it around the micro-expressions. Yeah, so that's something that we can improve on.
but we have it built in our system around safety. Yeah. I was fascinated one time. I don't remember when I came across this study and I always forget who is the author. So I will have to find it to refer to this podcast. But the research is your impact from communication is just 7 % of words. Where we so much focus our attention on, isn't it? Like mastering and perfecting which words we are going to use, which do have a value.
However, it's just 7 % in terms of the whole impact because what is the majority? As you mentioned, it's the body language, it's the voice and it's the energy, right? That it's really transmitting that it's making another human being actually feel safe. Right. So I know which research you're referring to. It's guy called Mehrabian from Stanford. And it's actually it's almost like an urban legend that's been circulating around in the market. And so I haven't found a research that actually tells us the impact of
voice, body language or words in my world, all of them are important. And I'm not differentiating saying one is more or less important because I mean, obviously somebody comes in with an amazing, hyper happy energy, but what they're saying is wasting my time or it's not profound. I'm absolutely going to leave. but I can also have the opposite where somebody saying something and it sounds monotone, but it's super interesting. And I'll lean in and, know, an example of that when I said it was like Dr. Gabor Mate.
I think he's phenomenal. He's quite flat when he's speaking, but I always lean in to listen to what he has to say because it's so profound. So we don't really know the division of the impact, but you know, if you get all three, you're working really well with your messaging. You're really adhering to people's different modes of taking in information because I'm using my hands and my voice and then the words and it's just aligning. So now I'm telling you a story with all the instruments that I have. Yeah.
Dagmara Asbreuk (13:52.056)
Tell us more about that story. So what is actually the focus in the Impactful Communication? You mentioned the keyword story. think there is something important to say. Yeah. So here's the thing. I've been classically trained out at Harvard Extension School in Austria, Sweden here to what good presentations, communication skills look like. And after some time I went, I don't agree with this.
You because it was very, this is what you have to do and this is what it should be. so there was a lot of, there were rules and they were quite disciplined. And I'm grateful that I got to experience that because now I know what doesn't apply to me. I'm sure in their model of the world, that's great. Good for them. But my model doesn't apply. So I went into analyzing the speakers, Amina speakers, when they were on stage and I'm going, why is this person doing amazing? Why is that person doing amazing? But they're not adhering to the classical training that I've had.
And it took me some time to kind of deconstruct that. And all I was seeing is when these individuals were in their truth and they're speaking from a place of true authenticity, then they can be static and monotone, but still do an amazing job or be hyper and very energetic and still do an amazing job because the audience is going, there's content, there's great delivery, there's authenticity. I like this. This is moving me and we're getting the goosebumps moments.
So my own objective assessment is great speakers, yes, they deliver content, fresh ideas, and their non-verbals are strong, but they are speaking from a place of their gut, their heart, their being. Yeah, I can say that this one is coming back, that's something important for leaders, right? And for you, first of all, when you are, you know, evaluating and working with those leaders that stand on a stage, and then of course that's Lance. yeah, yeah.
So from your experiences and various, your personal as well as as a MENA speaker, CEO and selecting all those different speakers, how does one come to that place of speaking authentically from the place of truth after finding the voice? Yeah, yeah. So I wear three hats, right? So I head up the business of MENA speakers and then I'm out speaking myself and that keeps me kind of fresh and...
Dagmara Asbreuk (16:16.926)
experiment with things, but then my third one is I train leaders and specifically leaders, C-suite, in what we call it public speaking, presentation skills, leadership, communication, presenting with impact, whatever word you want to express. But really, it's about taking them through a journey and this journey goes into being mechanical. This is how you present and these are the structures. What I'm doing at the same time is I'm
pushing them outside their comfort zone, I'm pushing them into a place of being real, raw. And then I'm challenging them on the statements that have been overused that is just so ingrained. And so I'm poking at those things so that they eventually, by the end of these sessions, they're able to speak with more impact and authenticity. And I think the best magic happens when we're one to one.
and I get to give that very unfiltered, let's try this, let's do that. And so it becomes a journey of go mechanical and then we push you and then you go into finding your own style. Got it. What are the challenges that those people that you work with encounter? The challenges right now, like I said, I'm really lucky in the fact that I'm attracting really beautiful humans that are just there's an alignment. I don't even have to say the no thank yous anymore.
doesn't happen. Previous challenges have been around meeting somebody in front of you that's offering a lot of there's a lot of resistance. No, but I don't want to and we we did it this way. This is how we do it in our organization. think one of the worst sentences I've heard, I was working with a group and it was right at the beginning.
of a communications classes in our organization, we use we language, we don't talk about ourselves. So nobody can talk about themselves in their presentations. And it was such a tough start when you have an influencer or leader saying that, what are you saying to everybody else in the room? You have to dim your light, don't talk about yourself, don't shine. And it felt like a volume in short. So when I meet that type of resistance, it becomes incredibly hard and
Dagmara Asbreuk (18:32.334)
that this version of myself leaves the room. Because I don't have anything to work with here. You don't want that growth for yourself. I'm not going to do the work for you. You have to do it. Yeah, so I'm hearing of course an acceptance first of all, of clarity as well, right? Where you can make an impact and you can always make an impact to people that are open. Yeah. Yeah, you cannot train the frog to become a bird. You cannot. If they don't want to. Yeah, and it's quite humbling because I think...
what we were talking about before, it's like, yes, when you're in alignment, you're in flow, but it's not always going to be great, great, great, great. Every now and then you get sent something and you go, OK, wait, let's what do I want to do with this information? It's like the brakes are just driving really fast and that happens and you go, wait, there's information here about myself, about the person in front of me who I want to be, how I want to show up. And then sometimes the best strategy is to actually quit.
Yeah. And you know, it's like the subtitle or subtopic of our conversation, I'm getting while we're talking actually is you come back to this word alignment, which is very much resonating with me, right? So it's part of your journey as well. And it's, think, where you want to see more people or leaders in because it's that's where we of course are open, first of all, so open to growth. Yeah. We can learn about ourselves much more, get more sharp and clear about who we are.
also what's our purpose, what's the message. And obviously communicate with more impact, more inspiration, because you mentioned this sensing, right? This feeling that people can feel that when you are authentic or you are inauthentic. You can't fake it actually. Absolutely. And if we want to be mechanical about that, you know,
So yes, we feel it, but we also leak that type of information. When we're being insincere, we might express disgust. And you see that you might express sadness. So you have that type of information from your face or your body language. So it does happen. You can try your best to not, but somebody somewhere who's a little bit in tune, a little bit sharp, they will pick up on the fact that something's not adding up here.
Dagmara Asbreuk (20:51.886)
And quite often the something's not adding up feeling tends to be quite true. So trusting yourself in that assessment too with the person in front of you, but also you yourself, challenging yourself to be in your truth and actually expressing where things are at. And I think the best example is I have a four-year-old at home. So a while back she looked at me and she said, mama worried.
And you my first reaction was going to be, no, no, no, fine, fine, fine. Everything's fine. And then I took a breath and I went, yes, mommy's worried today. And that's on me. And that's how I'm feeling. How are you feeling? And she didn't really answer. And I said, you're OK. But my job is to be worried today. And that's OK. Your job, you're a child. So your job is to be happy, to play, to have fun, to explore.
Is that what you're feeling? Yes. Are you okay with having that job? And are you okay with me as an adult having the job of being worried today? She went, okay. And then she like walked off. clarifying the expectations and roles here. Yeah. It was the most amazing thing because I could have gone into, no, no, I'm fine. I'm fine. But she's reading that I have something on my mind and I am worried. So instead what I went into is validate her experience and then no burden on her. That's my job.
And with these two elements, she could walk off and just let that whole idea go. Instead of going to rumination, what happened, what's happening, what's going on, I don't want that for her. And I think that that's a basic example with a four year old with parenthood. But the same goes with adults in the business environment. Quite often, the question on audience members, whether that's a team or in a meeting, thinking is what's in it for me or how does this connect to me? How does this relate to me?
Should I be concerned? Am I being made redundant? Not what's happening with the organization? Am I safe? Am I not? There are these questions that are popping up. And so in these critical moments, you as a leader have a solid chance to provide that assurance. So you do that, you're building trust. You do that, you're building loyalty. You do that, you're positivity. so these are critical elements.
Dagmara Asbreuk (23:12.17)
in a work environment, in a household, they really do overlap. And so the question is what type of leader do you want to be? Do you want to be that type of leader? Do want people to be loyal towards you? Well, then you have to lead with that type of honesty and trust yourself, lead by example. That requires courage from your side. It requires that you're brave. It requires that you take off that mask and go into that uncomfortable place. And so
These are my observations and my experience talking about this has also been researched from Google. There's a research called Project Aristotle, where they were looking at what high performing teams do. And the initial theory was that you'd go to the Ivy League, you hire the Ivy League kids and they would be the ones taking your business up, up and away. But the reality is what they found was the high performing teams.
wasn't about the degrees, it was about the amount of psychological safety displayed within this group. And then that is often led by the leader. So when the leader is showing up telling vulnerable stories, and the vulnerable stories could be, I'm not feeling well, I'm feeling burnt out, I'm really upset because of this deal didn't go through, or whatever is true to you, then that goes and translates to the rest of the team. And then the other thing is being inviting to, so you're sitting in a meeting,
be inclusive, invite everyone into the conversation. Don't have one or two major influencers dominating the conversation. Invite lower hierarchy or lower ranked people into the conversation. Give them a voice. So that's the research. That's my lived experience. That's the observations. And that's what I got feelings telling me. Yeah. And I absolutely say I'm into that. I mean, you are talking about two of trades of characteristics of extraordinary leaders that I created based on
observations, work with people and people that I inspired myself with, what? Industry leaders. So yeah, one of them is, and I love that you put it in of courage to be authentic. And then second, course, inclusive. And it's, think, important to mention the courage because we think we have the buzzword about being authentic. And I think that not everybody is understanding or meaning the same thing of what does it mean to be authentic.
Dagmara Asbreuk (25:30.374)
And very often it's this misconception, okay, I'm just, you know, who I am, so I don't need to do anything. That's when, that's why I'm authentic, right? And that's absolutely not the thing, right? This is how you can show up so that it serves you, but it serves also others. And that requires courage, courage to speak up sometimes in meetings when it's in disalignment with your values. Hopefully you know them. But also, as you say, as you, you, from your experience, courage to say no or courage to walk away.
because it is not in alignment with who you truly are or alignment with your true authentic self. And it's also saying I'm OK with perhaps triggering or upsetting people around me with my truth and not going in and taking care of their emotions, letting adults handle their own feelings. So if what I'm saying is going to upset you, this is my truth. So why should I censor myself for you? Because I don't believe you can manage your own.
internal system and well-being. So I think that's a big element as well when you see that in communication. That's why a lot of people don't, they silence themselves. But it's liberating. It's liberating and going through this process requires that you look within. So it's a process of introspection. It's interesting. You have to look in with that in order to be able to do that. Yeah, and actually even transform from within quite a lot of stuff because once you look within, you discover many things.
that your mind wants to adjust or let go of or liberate yourself from because they don't serve you, And that's the goal in finding it out. And I like what you mentioned about this absolute connection to psychological safety. Because yes, in leadership and high performing teams, thriving cultures and organizations, it's obvious that psychological safety is a need to be there, that people feel values accepted.
hurt and also safe, right? On psychological level. In order to speak up, in order to engage in debates, in order to create new ideas, in order to be okay to fail, in order to be bold, in order to be courageous. We all want it, in order to innovate. So for business, critical component. And I like what you mentioned because it all goes down to how does leader create a psychological safety space is through being courageous to be authentic and being vulnerable.
Dagmara Asbreuk (27:54.956)
as you mentioned, because that's when you open that space of psychological safety. And that's a huge impact. Yeah. Through verbal and nonverbal communication around that. Right. So it's a huge impact. Right. And I also think, you know, early on when I went into this leadership position myself, what I noticed is sometimes you're talking to, say, like a staff member or so, and they're looking at you and very obviously disagreeing with you.
or very obviously not telling you fully the truth. And so my younger self would just let it slide. And this version of me would be like, were you really sick? Or did you just have a cozy day with your wife or husband? You know what? It's all okay. You can just tell me. Like, it's fine. Yeah, I did. Good. Did you enjoy it? You feel rejuvenated? Good. All right. See you tomorrow. Do you need an extra day? Just do that.
Just to do that or I can see it on your face that you don't really agree with me. So I'd love to hear what your opinion is and then just be quiet. And in the quiet, if you don't get anything, another thing you can do is what you're doing to me right now, it's the nods. So you can go into like a triple nod, quiet and triple nod.
why often people start talking on the back of that. So it's just about having the patience to call out what you're observing and trust you're going with it. Go and lean back and invite them into a conversation, into a triple nod. I'm doing it. But believe me, completely unconsciously. I think there are certain habits that you are basically... Then I know that I'm in my presence of curious and present.
and empathic listening. That's actually probably which is skill, of course, that I practice. So I don't notice anymore. That's true. Yeah. So basically what I'm hearing is this giving a space as well and knowing when to pose, when to speak less and not dominate. Maybe you have a... probably you enter now. And also being human. Yes. Right. So coming across...
Dagmara Asbreuk (30:14.326)
not from the role and position that you hold, but creating that human aspect by, you know, well, which needs to be fostered by psychological safety. So when you create that safe space, you will get more through answers from the people or real answers from the people on the questions. How do you really feel? You know, I wouldn't say this is something that's come easy to me at all. I did these Myers-Briggs and similar personality tests really early on.
in my early 20s. It's been a while. And I actually got really terrible news from the lady that was doing these tests on she looked me in the eyes and she said, you're a classic red. I don't think you have empathy. The results are showing a lack of empathy. And it was such a gut punch. what? That's a terrible thing to hear. And then I started understanding more what that means. And so it's been I've been working at this for about 17 years, very consciously.
until it became second nature. I think that's also part of the reason why I am reading these type of things, because I want to be a great empathetic leader. And so that moved through a song and dance as well of first awareness and then acceptance. And then, this is terrible. The whole grief process. And then I went, I'm going to do something about it. Reading, reading, reading, reading, reading, being coached. And then at some point, this is just my default. It has been long journey.
I can totally resonate with you. Do you see color? But I do have yellow, red. So I have a both. And yeah, you know that this point of empathy. So I do like personality styles for one reason, to bring some common language. However, and especially in communication as well, it helps the team to communicate, understand where people come from. However, you have to be very careful not to put people in the boxes.
That's kind of one default of this personality styles, because sometimes we kind of compare to my life people. So that means red people cannot be empathic. Right. Yeah. And it's valid what you said in terms of, there is some area for growth. Right. And in my. Recent years of journey of within, where I also came like you were the first like, OK, me, I can't be empathic somebody else, but I there's no default. Right. But actually, first of all, like you.
Dagmara Asbreuk (32:39.414)
It's from knowing to being. So the journey has been, of course, taking me some time, but I also discovered a process that everybody can access this empathy. It's a power within us. It is one of the very important resource that we have. We just need to get access to. For me, that was a mental fitness that basically is one of the tools and one of the framework I bring to leaders because this is the most practical way of how we can actually manage the mind and at the same time our emotions and expand on being more compassionate and empathetic.
because knowing to being are two different things. And it's a process of embracing that. is a process and it was interesting because I almost over corrected. And then after that, the next one was, how are you with boundaries? How do you communicate boundaries so that you're not just with the over compassion situation? So then now we had to learn boundaries and embody boundaries. And so it's a constant evolution. I love it.
I think one of the mantras I have at the moment is how do I have this heart-centered leadership and make all my decisions, not some, all of my decisions from place to what feels good as opposed to what I think feels good. And that's been an amazing growth journey as well. I love the conversation because we're touching really on topics which are of importance and impact because that's what
That is the essence, that's the foundation. It's not only about the strategy, it's not only about the story, which is also important, how you say your story, but it's a lot about self-management in this domain of, of course, making an impact as a leader. And you mentioned about authenticity, empathy, inclusion, boundaries. What else do we want to add to an impactful communication? Because at the end of the day,
No matter what business you're in, the most important people are your people, are your clients. For me, my team is more important at the moment than my clients. They're like, I use the term loose, but I feel like they are family. I have lot of objections to that concept with corporates, but I feel like we are a form of high functioning, high performing family. There you go. And I can't.
Dagmara Asbreuk (35:04.366)
deeply about them. that's been, and it's interesting because on one hand, the care is so deep, but there's also reality that one day they will leave, right, and go to another organization, etc. And that's something that I'm hoping, if that's what they want to do, I want to support them in that. But it's this double edged sword in the sense of you will never become a great leader unless you deeply care about people. the risk of that is they're gonna leave. And earlier, that's gonna happen.
And so it's an interesting balancing act because I don't think you can be a great leader and just hold back and create so much distance because the closer you are, the more intimate you are. Yeah. It doesn't serve you, first of all, because you kind of cut off your emotions and you start to go in a transactional leadership or tactical type of leadership rather than really empowered leadership and or transformational leadership, we can call it even. And there was another quote and it goes like
You know, what if we invest in people and they leave? That was, think, a quote from, I don't know who, but there was like CEO talking, what if we invest in people and they leave? And the CEO was saying, and what if we don't invest in people and they stay? Nice. So, know, when we are, where do we want to place a focus? That's the point. Because yes, maybe some of your members.
right on any members of a team will progress, will grow, want to evolve, want to go somewhere else. We part of their journey of growth. And it gives, of course, it serves the organization that we lead, the team that we lead, and it serves them in another way. So why do we need to focus on that? Right. I'm with you. And I'm not even thinking along those lines at all. Priorities. Do they feel safe? Do they feel like they can show up however they want?
Do they feel like they can live? Those are the things that I'm a bit more, that I think about as opposed to are they going to leave? They leave, they leave. We'll stay in touch. I'll support you. I'll do whatever I need to help you in your journey. If they say, I love that, then I'll try to take care of you to the best of my capacity. It's just life. Nothing lasts forever, and that's OK, too. So building.
Dagmara Asbreuk (37:26.2)
connection and relationships and care you added that we have five points now. Yeah, yeah. So I know that we're going slowly towards the time boundaries of today and I know we could probably conversate. But what is popping in my mind is this one, you know, some of the questions that you kind of you ask it or you don't ask it, but I still want to ask it is what are maybe like two, three typical mistakes that you see that leaders are doing when it goes about.
communicating with impact? So I think one is being casual about it. Like sometimes I see leaders that don't even understand the amount of influence that they have. And say we're sitting in a group, a workshop or similar, quite often you'll see that formal and informal leaders, everyone else is observing their behavior, observing their words, observing what they're saying.
And there are moments where these key people don't really comprehend how much of an impact they have on other people around them. So the lack of awareness and then because of this lack of awareness, a little bit more of a casual gung-ho approach, not as intentional, not as conscious. That's one case study popping up in my mind. How can we define what casual means? Just that we have maybe clarity around that.
It can be interpreted in many different ways. Yeah, so words matter. If you are signing up and you're being negative or complaining, then that for me is quite unintentional. It's casual. It's not taught through. do my words impact everyone else around me? Got it. And so that can create something toxic and that's often an indication of a toxic culture. So that for me is like...
Go and get coaching or an exorcism, whichever. Pick your choice. That's one. And were we at mistakes or where were we? Okay. The other one is just staying very much at the top and not going down. And so a prime example is working with a very high powered, high distant leader. And so part of the exercise was
Dagmara Asbreuk (39:46.712)
How does he engage more and connect more with the team? one of the agreements that we made was every morning, go and shake hands with as many people as possible. Ask them, are you? Now, when we shake hands, we release oxytocin. So that's a connector. And if you can, because of culture, great. If you can't do this, but maintain eye contact at least, because that also releases oxytocin. Go in and ask, hi, how are you? Good morning. How was your day? Start building that relationship. So going from just being super distant to engaging.
There's so many synergies that come out of that. And the third one is something that we've been really hammering on is if you're there and everyone's looking at you, please, for the love of God, get public speaking training, get media training, get training, create an awareness because you are a walking representation, an ambassador of the company and everyone else that you're leading. So be conscious and be intentional about it. Because when you show up,
There's so much that can happen out of that. There's so much positive impact and don't underestimate that. The value and the weight. From the role, from the position that you hold, that you have an impact through that, just by that, right? So people look up to you. yeah, yeah. So yeah, those are three main mistakes and also how to overcome them, right? Because that's what you're basically saying. I can see that and can resonate with that.
What would you love to leave the listeners with? Your words, the power of words is so important. In your words you have different outcomes, but I truly hope that your words offer hope and healing when you finish the sentence. So pay attention to what you say. So that it's intention that's the impact. Please do. And in order to do that, there are some steps, like a couple of them we mentioned already today. And I think the big message that came from me through...
from our conversation to me, was the importance of taking ownership responsibility for your own discovery and evolution to become more authentic, because that is when you stand in your truth, first of all for yourself, but also that is where you make the best impact, because that is where you communicate with much more ease, with much more clarity, and you make people feel in a different way. That is where you contribute to creating that
Dagmara Asbreuk (42:09.592)
psychological space that people so much want to be in. So, so rich this conversation. Far from classical conversation of communication with impact, isn't it? Sanna, thank you very, much. How people can, so if a leader wants to become better in that domain, where they can find you.
I welcome any and all comments, raw and real are preferred. And you can connect with me on LinkedIn, on Instagram, on our website, www.mina-speakers.com. That's what it is. Pretty easy to remember, right? And definitely I'm going to drop as well that in the episode. Thank you very much for sharing. yeah, I also, I think discovered another part of you. I know we know each other a little bit already, but it was a pleasure to listen.
also about your journey. it's interesting how many synchronicities I'm having and coming across people like yourself that basically are helping, I think, us all to send a powerful message of how important is the inner work and finding yourself. I can say thank you for holding space and thank you for allowing for this type of conversation in the business world and normalizing the idea that you can show up with brain and heart and soul and that we don't need to differentiate those three.
I love it, absolutely. Thank you very much, the alignment. Well, thank you so much for today. And to all listeners, I hope that you enjoyed watching and listening to that episode. I truly did. And if so, then please do subscribe to this channel, share it with other leaders, because we definitely want to spread that word. I hope you also take a couple of golden nuggets and you know where to look at in order to be more impactful as a leader. And subscribe to Extraordinary Leadership Newsletter.
where also elaborate on news and topics around leadership so that you can be truly an extraordinary leader. And remember, be the change that you want to see and choose to be extraordinary.
Dagmara Asbreuk (44:11.278)
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